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Thread: Hmm brain storming

  
  1. #1
    Trixer is offline -Hacks Newbie
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    So,

    I was sitting in my lazy boy today playing with a new micro controller shield I got for networking when I got to wondering something......


    Why cant we just build a little device that we fit between the network connection on your 360 and your router (like an inline hub kind of.. thing) that read traffic (most likely its encrypted but thats not to much of a problem) and filtered the stuff your xbox was trying to send to the servers...

    So lets say 360 gets a challenge from the M$ servers, and is about to get you banned from live when all of sudden our little box asorbs the 360s message and instead sends back a default ok message....


    Now this sounds easy in theory but lets take a look at some variables here...

    Im sure messages are encrypted and also use handshaking (which basically means that the 360 generates a special key that the server expects when it sends a message out, the key is diff each time)



    I think im going to start sniffing the traffic between the 360 and the live servers, and see if there is anything usable there... with proper testing and enough people logging information I think we could create something that would let us be protected.... at least for a little while.. who knows?


    Anyone already doing this or anyone might have any further info?


  2. #2
    Adders is offline -Hacks Smarty
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    Is that not what the ixtreme firmware does already? The problem being getting the timing of the response sent back at the right time interval, which, if your box thingy could do, then I'm sure that would already be built into the cfw. I can't help feeling M$ are using a diferent method to detect the modded consoles, maybe reading the firmware directly now.
    When the need arises, anything and everything becomes a hammer!

  3. #3
    Powerslave is offline Gone fishin -Hacks Titan
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trixer
    So,

    I was sitting in my lazy boy today playing with a new micro controller shield I got for networking when I got to wondering something......


    Why cant we just build a little device that we fit between the network connection on your 360 and your router (like an inline hub kind of.. thing) that read traffic (most likely its encrypted but thats not to much of a problem) and filtered the stuff your xbox was trying to send to the servers...
    NO, all challenges are done by the DASHBOARD, not by the M$ servers. This is why they use Store and Forward...

    So lets say 360 gets a challenge from the M$ servers, and is about to get you banned from live when all of sudden our little box asorbs the 360s message and instead sends back a default ok message....
    This is also not how it works, entirely. If you read what they do SERVER side, then you need to see what they do NOW, to your NAND. They are crippling the 360s now, that's done at the NAND.


    Now this sounds easy in theory but lets take a look at some variables here...

    Im sure messages are encrypted and also use handshaking (which basically means that the 360 generates a special key that the server expects when it sends a message out, the key is diff each time)



    I think im going to start sniffing the traffic between the 360 and the live servers, and see if there is anything usable there... with proper testing and enough people logging information I think we could create something that would let us be protected.... at least for a little while.. who knows?
    [b]This has been done already, so people could try to hack at the M$ servers; *FAIL*[b]


    Anyone already doing this or anyone might have any further info?
    The FRONT PAGE has plenty information as NEWS articles, I know, I put them there.

    They show you now, how to uncripple the HDD through the NAND.

    The latest ban wave:
    No more HDD Loading your games for fast load times.
    Media Center Disabled.
    Profile LOCKED to then console; if you move it, or recover it, it is corrupted, you lose ALL progress.

    This is when NOT on line, becuase the NAND/Dashboard is programmed do cause these failures.

  4. #4
    Trixer is offline -Hacks Newbie
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    Ahh yes, I understand that, but we can let the hardware hackers worry about that stuff..

    My main goals here is to prevent xbox live bans via controlling what information the xbox 360 sends back to the server via a device that packet sniffs and switches things to more of our liking.


    I set up a packet sniffer yesterday but didnt have alot of time to work with it because I had other obligations, however I will be around more tonight on xbox live so I think that ill be able to get some decent information. I really wish I could have gotten some packet sniffs of people being banned from live.

    Im not the best at encryption but I got a buddy thats pretty smart at it, the thing I hate about it is all the patterns you got to look for (which is why its realistically double encrypted most likely)

    However I think if we can find generic responses to xbox live messages (like connection handshaking, and simple status messages) then we can start to work to figure out their scheme, after that we can start to work to attempt to plug our own stuff in... assuming we can realistically attack the encryption with any real progress.

  5. #5
    Powerslave is offline Gone fishin -Hacks Titan
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    The problem with your "idea" may also prevent game and/or system updates, which is another time these things are transmitted, or checked. You're going to see, it looks pretty benign, but the result is the console Ban. Once the NAND has been updated, there's no reversing it without you doing it manually.

    You cannot UNBAN the console without changing the KeyVault to a valid key, that is, one M$ used in an XB360, which they have a database full of. Once the console is banned, live prevents you from logging in on THEIR side. The Z:code is stored console side, so YOU know it was banned.

    Not only that? No one knows WHEN the store and forward took place. It could have happened months ago, but nothing is done till they run their ban hammer program, so to speak. They keep it so you don't know WHEN it si going to happen, but I have said over and over again, it's always with an anticipated release title. The DASHBOARD knows if a challenge has failed, which is why it's stored. From what people know, there are no "real-time" challenge and response tests going on while connected to live, it's all done locally on the console, THEN transmitted to the live servers. That data can sit there for months, as more data compiles for them to compare results with, against modded and non modded consoles. After which, the ban hammer routine is run, and the consoles are banned SERVER site first and foremost. WHEN your console connects again, the real damage is done...

    It won't be easy to track down. The people that wrote the CFWs should know what VALUES the dashboard expects, so then you look for that data to be transmitted. I think THEY would have figured something like this out already, but, there is no console side plug-in component they can design to intercept the data. As I said, people have been trying to hack the Live Servers for quite some time, this sniffing has been done, with no results.

  6. #6
    Trixer is offline -Hacks Newbie
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    Ahh,
    Yeah I figured someone would have thought about this already, I didnt even think about it being a mass banned thing... so basically you are banned before you even know it, they just dont do it until they "flip" the switch....

    Yeah, I guess I could see why this would be a bitch and a half... man I wish I had a couple xbox 360s I could put under the microscope and not be afraid to mess then up (only got my one right now and im not really wanting to risk it for the interest of science) I work with embedded hardware every day (my company makes embedded hardware for mobile type stuff)

    Im not saying I am smarter then M$ (I mean lots of money buys lots of smart people that makes lots more money) or smarter then anyone currently doing anything in the modding community, but I bet I could at least be helpful.

  7. #7
    Powerslave is offline Gone fishin -Hacks Titan
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trixer
    Ahh,
    Yeah I figured someone would have thought about this already, I didnt even think about it being a mass banned thing... so basically you are banned before you even know it, they just dont do it until they "flip" the switch....
    Basically, yes, but anyone who signs on while the "switch" is on, can be banned immediately.

    Yeah, I guess I could see why this would be a bitch and a half... man I wish I had a couple xbox 360s I could put under the microscope and not be afraid to mess then up (only got my one right now and im not really wanting to risk it for the interest of science) I work with embedded hardware every day (my company makes embedded hardware for mobile type stuff)

    Im not saying I am smarter then M$ (I mean lots of money buys lots of smart people that makes lots more money) or smarter then anyone currently doing anything in the modding community, but I bet I could at least be helpful.
    IT has been said, that even when your console transmits, is can take up to 14 days for the ban to happen, if they are not currently running a ban wave. You just don't know, and that's the problem...

  8. #8
    Trixer is offline -Hacks Newbie
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    Yeah ill agree with that completely, its probably just being sent server side and then a database fills up with the gamertag IDs and when they press the button it scans the DB and bans everyone there.

    The reason they are "waving" it I feel is because they want to wait and build up big numbers, Its much more forceful if you say we banned 1 million people then if you say we banned 1000 people.

    It also gives an opportunity for them to look at who is doing and how they are doing it.

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